My wife and I have once again been ensnared in the clutches of an exciting, thriller-style TV show on Netflix. With 4 young children at home it is often difficult for us to watch a full-length movie on most evenings, but we have discovered that through Netflix we can watch a TV show commercial free and it lasts about 45 minutes. So we have got caught up in a show called "Prison Break." I am not recommending it for everyone, but we definitely enjoy it. The entire first season is about a brilliant engineer trying to break out his brother who has been unjustly framed for murder. In the second season they are now running from the local law enforcement, the FBI, and everyone who has seen the local news. As I watched the show last night it struck me how paranoid they had become. Anyone who looked at them twice had become someone to run away from, even though the reality is that most people wouldn't actually connect the dots. The fear was mostly in their own minds and they had become afraid of everyone and everything. What a horrible way to live. Constantly looking over your shoulder wondering if someone was going to rat you out and judgment would be around the next corner. But what I find most interesting about all of this is that I believe most Christians from conservative or fundamental backgrounds are living their lives exactly like these paranoid men on this show. I would like to propose that the Church has created Christians who are afraid to be Christians.
This fear that characterizes many Christians has been supported by a misunderstanding of a few Bible verses. First and foremost is the passage in 1 Thess. 5:22 which says in the King James Version, "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Because I have discussed this passage in previous blogs I will not belabor the point. The point is very simple. The word "appearance" is from a Greek word that should be translated as "forms" or "kinds." Most modern translations have correctly translated this verse as "Abstain from every form of evil" (ESV). So the thought in this verse, clearly seen from the context is that we are to stop practicing all sins, not just certain sins. Unfortunately this verse has become a hammer to beat people into submitting to a whole series of man-made rules. For example, a common teaching of fundamental pastors is that Christians shouldn't attend movie theaters because it might "look" like you are attending a "bad movie." The list of possible offenses simply grows from there. So we have created a breed of Christians who are afraid to be Christians. They are afraid to live their lives constantly worrying and fearful that someone might see them and think they are sinning. Sounds very similar to those paranoid men in the TV show, doesn't it?
The other passages that are often misunderstood are the Christian "liberty" passages in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 10. In these passages the Apostle Paul sets forth simple guidelines for issues that are not specifically mentioned in Scripture. In these passages the favorite example is meat offered to idols. Paul makes it clear that some Christians (the weak ones) view the meat as having associations with idols. However other Christians (the mature ones) realize that the meat is merely food and cannot possibly be sinful in and of itself. Paul makes it clear that the mature Christians may need to abstain from doing certain activities in order that the weak Christians not be offended. This teaching is often used to support the idea that Christians should never participate in certain activities, such as drinking alcoholic beverages, listening to certain types of music, going to certain places, wearing certain clothes, etc. because if you do you might cause another Christian to be offended.
Let me make this clear, this is not what that passage is teaching at all. First of all, the issue of "offending" must be clearly understood. The word "offend" in this context is very clearly referring to causing someone to sin. Not merely causing them to be upset or bothered by what you do. Too often it is the "Stricter Believer" who is "offended" that someone would do something. But that isn't the idea at all. The idea is of someone who can actually fall into sin because of your activities.When someone comes to me and tells me that something I did "offended" them my first response is to ask them if they have asked forgiveness from God yet. You see, if someone has truly been biblically "offended" then that means I did something that caused them to fall back into sin. So they should have gone to God and sought forgiveness over this sin. If that isn't what happened, then I didn't really offend them and there is no biblical reason for me to stop my activities.
Second, Paul is very clear that this abstaining is for a specific, known individual. Paul's examples reveal that if we are ignorant of what another believer is struggling with that we should simply carry out our normal practices. We are only to change our normal activities when it is clear that another believer could be thrown back into sin over our actions. So how does this work out practically? Well, it means that we are simply to live our lives and stop worrying about some Christian out there somewhere who might be "offended" by what I am doing. It also means that our typical sweeping application of this passage is completely wrong. It is unbiblical to say after teaching this passage, "Therefore, we should all stop drinking wine because someone out there might have a problem with it. For the love of fellow Christians we must stop doing this activity." That is not the application at all. The application is that we should feel free to drink wine unless we know that there is a specific individual that could fall into sin through this activity. For example, if I go out to dinner with another couple in our church I would never order a glass of wine unless I had previously discussed this with them. Even if they didn't personally drink there would be nothing wrong with ordering a glass. On the other hand if he explains to me that he truly struggles with addiction to alcohol then I would never touch it in front of him or bring it near him.
Third, Paul also makes it clear that abstaining from a certain activity is temporary. If you look closely at the passage you will notice that Paul constantly refers to the one who believes meat offered to idols is sinful as the "weaker" Christian. It is also clear that this believer is contrasted with the "mature" believer. The implication from Paul is that the weaker Christian is a new Christian. In other words the reason this believer is struggling with the meat offered to idols is because they are a new believer who has not been taught the truth and has not grown in Christ yet. The point here is simple. Our conscience can be educated. The Bible is very clear that our conscience is not infallible and can be wrong. When a believer comes to Christ their conscience needs to be educated to understand that certain activities are sinful, but they also can educate their conscience to understand that certain activites are not sinful. This ties in closely with the issue of music and association. Many beleivers have very strong associations with certain styles of music. It is possible that when they hear certain rock, pop, or country styles they automatically associate that style of music with their drinking days, wild concerts, or sexual activities in their past. This reveals the very issue of educating the conscience. Many people today listen calmly to the Beatles, Elvis Presley, or the Beach Boys while at work or driving their car and never once have thoughts or inclinations to break out into wild, illicit relationships or binge drinking. For example, when I hear rock styles of music my first thought is that it is praise music glorifying to God, and I have no sinful associations at all with this music. On the other hand when I hear high church music being sung in a church service my first thought is that this person is probably a legalistic hypocrite because those are my associations with that style of music. The point is that we all have to educate our conscience so that we don't judge music (or other elements) as sinful when it is really just our personal associations.
The larger issue of this passage is that when we do abstain from certain activities it is for a time because of a weaker brother that needs to be educated. Believers need to learn that just because they struggle with a certain sin doesn't mean that everyone else should abstain from it as well. That will only happen when the mature believers start discipling the weaker ones and teaching them the Scriptures so they can understand what the Bible truly calls sin and what are simply man-made traditions. Instead of doing this we have created a Church subculture that lifts up the idea that "mature believers" are the ones with the strictest set of rules who don't do anything that someone might be "offended" by. We have taken our responsibility to disciple younger believers and turned it into a rules-keeping game. Whoever has the most rules, wins.
I titled this blog, "Afraid To Be A Christian." I believe that we have defined Christianity by what we don't do and it has created an entire Christian subculture based on fear. The Bible is clear that we are not to live our lives afraid of what others think. We are to stop making quick judgments (Rom 14) and start showing a little grace and mercy and love toward other believers. Stop the Christian paranoia and start living our lives as true Christians enjoying the life God has given us and the great freedom we have in Christ. As Paul warns the Galatians, "Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Stop trying to please God by fear-filled living (living by the flesh) and start living by grace (Spirit-filled living).
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23 comments:
I totally disagree with some of your assertions here. Some are biblical, and, certainly, there are some who do live as Pharisees, constantly looking for faults and sins and every opportunity to point them out in others, but that does not mean that every Christian who is careful how they live and represent Christ in the world is walking around in fear. I do not appreciate when some exalt themselves over God's Word and make the claim something SHOULD have been translated a given way, as if THEY are the final authority in how God's Word should have been translated. Do you feel you are a more gifted translator, more educated and understanding of the translation process, more familiar with the manuscript evidence and more "pure" in your desire for a true translation of God's Word, than were the very gifted and accomplished translators of the KJV? If not, why would you make such an emphatic statement that something "should have been" translated a certain way. I believe appearance is completely right and fits the meaning of the text. We ARE to be careful in how we live as light and salt IN THIS WORLD both before beleivers and those "without". It does not mean being fearful of all we do, but certainly careful in our "conversation" or manner of life, as we live it out and glorify God in all things. Would you disagree with this? For instance, the matter of drinking. The Bible does not explicitly fordid drinking, but there truly is enough biblical support that it is best that we do not, for many reasons. Finally, offending is the same as stumbling and we clearly are NOT to put a stumbling block before others. I am not sure how you came up with the idea that this only concerns those we know personally. I do believe that is true, but also that we, again, are salt and light TO THE WORKD and need to be careful in our entire manner of living to always attempt to glorify God and be in the world but not OF THE WORLD. It is hard, and no one lives it perfectly, but that is, I believe, what the Scriptures indicate we should strive for. I believe some Christians can use their "liberty" for an excuse to induldge in their own sin of choice, just as much as others use the idea of not stumbling others as an excuse to be too legalistic. I think the answer is to personally seek to follow the Word of God in our own lives and live to His glory daily.
Hello Anonymous,
To answer your first issue of the translation of the KJV in 1 Th 5:22 concerning the word "appearance." I never said anything about the purity or the giftedness of the translators of the KJV. Whatever thoughts about the KJV it is a fact that many manuscripts, papyri, etc. cocnerning the Greek language have been discovered since their translation and many of the modern translations have done a better job in certain areas because of the better understanding of the Greek that can be had today than over 400 years ago. That aside, the word SHOULD be translated differently TODAY. When they translated it as "appearance" the word appearance did not have the same meaning it has today. The word meant more the idea of that which appears or shows up or pops up regularly. It didnt' mean that which "looks like" something. So even the KJV translators weren't saying that we should avoid something that "looks like" sin. They were saying that we should avoid sin wherever it pops up or appears. In other words we should avoid all kinds of sin. A quick look at the context of that chapter will show you that this is what Paul is teaching.
Hello Anonymous,
I thought I would discuss your points in separate comments. I do not agree with the general comment you made about living our lives in light of both believers and unbeleivers. I do disagree with this statement. "The Bible does not explicitly fordid drinking, but there truly is enough biblical support that it is best that we do not, for many reasons." I don't see anywhere in Scripture that drinking is considered a sin. What I do see is that Jesus drank alcoholic wine many times and was even considered of being a drunkard by the religious people of his day (Lk 7:33-34). If you check out those verses it is very clear that Jesus drank alcoholic wine and John the Baptist didn't. It is also very clear that Jesus didn't care about "appearances" and what it "looked like" to other people. He drank to the point that people could accuse him of being drunk. But He was sinless so clearly this wasn't sin. By the way to interpret 1 Th 5:22 as saying that not avoiding the "appearance" of sin is sin lead to the conclusion that Jesus must have sinned. I am assuming you don't believe that.
Regarding you final comments I don't disagree at all. We are to be salt and light to the world. We may disagree on what this means, though. For example many people believe that being salt and light means that we shouldn't have fellowship with unbelievers unless we are preaching the Gospel to them. Paul clearly contradicts this in 1 Cor 5:9ff. I also agree that some Christians use liberty to indulge in sin and others turn it into legalism.
I have always heard "liberty" taught with a million qualifiers. "Well, we do have the freedom to do such and such, but..." My problem with this is that in the Bible Paul leaves the "but..." up to each individual. Read the first part of Romans 14. He says very clearly. One person wants to do such and such, let him do it. Another person might not want to do it and that is perfectly fine. But Paul says, stop judging your brother.
We aren't talking about things that are clearly sin. We are talking about things are debated, like drinking alcohol, watching movies in theaters, smoking a cigar (which Charles Spurgeon argued was entirely biblical). As long as we are striving to be biblical we won't be living in fear and that was my point.
Correction - in my second post. I meant to say "I do not disagree with your general statement." Typing fast always gets me in trouble. :)
Pierre, I appreciate your discussion of Christian liberty. There is a great need for the teaching of Scripture generally and the example of Jesus specifically to be clearly held forth. It always amazed me when people discussed the issue of drinking alcoholic beverages without doing full justice to Jesus' miracle at Cana, the accusation of his being a drunkard, or his clear statement that what comes out of a man's heart defiles him rather than what goes in. I often got the impression that people were embarrassed with Jesus' behavior and would be uncomfortable around him. So much for being his disciples!
I also agreed with your understanding of 1 Thess. 5:22, what Dan Wallace dubbed "The Sin-Sniffer's Catch-All Verse." Many times the exclusive use of one (outdated) translation causes more problems than it prevents. I am not KJV only, but I do appreciate it and hold it in high esteem. However, it in itself is not inspired (unless such an interpretation of "inspiration" must be allowed to apply to all other English versions), and any claim made for the character and qualification of its translators can't be denied the translators of other English versions. An ad hominem argument, if employed validly, must go both ways. To do otherwise is arbitrary. (This point is more a response to the anonymous commentator).
To respond to your points. The manuscript evidence reveals that the KJV translators had available to them every line of text we now have, though less of those lines. Yet when compared with what we have now, they lacked nothing, and rejected the lines of manuscript that have been without exception used by all modern translations. On this subject, Pensacola Christian COllege did a very thorough series of videos on the subject. I know at one time they offered copies for free. Not sure now. You could certainly contact them and find out, but it is worth watching and considering. I believe Paul was saying, simply, as said in other passages, to beware of living in a way as to stumble others, and, of course, that means we are to strive to live pure lives in every area. I suggest a reading of the following websites concerning wine: http://www.thebaptist.org/alcohol.htm and http://www.learnthebible.org/jesus-and-wine.html for other perspectives. Your assertion that "it is very clear" that Jesus consumed alcohol is without warrant. If it were VERY clear, good Christians on boths sides would not be debating it today. I do agree as far as liberty goes that we, as individuals, must be fully persuaded we are doing as the Lord would have us do. I know there are things I do others may look down upon, and I, individually, will answer to the Lord if I am in the wrong.
In reply to Anonymous,
I don't know your background or your name, for that matter, but I would have to disagree with you on the KJV issue. I attended PCC and went to their seminary Dr. Dell Johnson was teaching there. I was there when he preached the original messages that were videotaped and I then was forced to watch them each year. I also took their 3 credit course on the KJV issue and read over 10 books arguing for the KJV only position. After doing my own study and research on both sides I have come to the conclusion that I respect the KJV translation, but it is simply a translation. The issue of the underlying text is a bigger issue, but I have no desire to turn this into a KJV debate. Needless to say, we disagree on this issue. I would like to point out that the KJV issue really has nothing to do with the point I was making in the blog.
Regarding my comment about it being very clear that Jesus drank wine. I agree that many good Christians argue this issue of drinking alcoholic beverages, but I do not back down from my statement. I did not say that it was "very clear" concerning the overall issue of drinking. I said it was "very clear" that Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Luke 7:33-34 says, "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!" (KJV, of course) :).
Notice that Jesus is contrasting his actions with John the Baptist and concluding that the Pharisees rejected both of them. What is the contrast? Jesus says John did not eat bread or drink wine. Then he says, in contrast, that He came eating bread and drinking. Drinking what? Grape juice? There is no way that anyone looking at this passage could come up with that interpretation unless they have already made up their minds and are ignoring the Bible. But the text even clarifies more. Jesus says that because He was drinking wine He was called a drunkard (winebibber, in the KJV). You don't get accused of drunkness for drinking grape juice or water. You get accused of drunkness because you drink wine. So I will go back to my original statement. It is very clear that Jesus drank wine (not grape juice, but wine).
Also regarding resources, I looked at those websites and they are teaching the common misinformation that I was taught growing up. I would recommend reading "God Gave Wine" by Kenneth L. Gentry. It is the only truly exegetical resource I have found on the subject. Just one little tidbit that you might find interesting. When grapes were pressed they immediately began fermenting because the powder on the outside of grapes contains yeast. So until 1863 and the invention of the pasteurization process by Thomas Welch there was no such thing as unfermented grape juice. Except, of course, for about one or two weeks a year immediately after the harvest. The whole rest of the year it was fermented, because it had to be. So when you read the word "wine" in the Bible it is always, repeat always, referring to fermented wine.
Anonymous said:
"I know there are things I do others may look down upon, and I, individually, will answer to the Lord if I am in the wrong."
I think that's the crux of the article, isn't it. Are we so concerned about doing things that other believers may look down upon (but God does not call sin) that we are afraid to do anything that might have the appearance of sin?
Or are we mature enough that we can use our discernment and our understanding of biblical doctrines to determine what we should and should not do in any given circumstance?
I agree we need to agree to disagree at this point. I will say just a few things. The comment about the KJV was in reference to you saying what the verse should have said or what would be a better translation. THat is your opinion, and you should state it as an opinion, acknowleding that millions of other Christians totally disagree, many, I am sure, who are more scholarly than you. I was not at the college but did see the entire series and have also studied the issue from both sides, and I do always find the side that argues against the preservation of God's Words wanting. I once used multiple Bible versions, as, perhaps you do, or at least routinely quoted from whichever one I felt, at the time, best said what I wanted to convey, rather than just letting the Word itself speak for itself without finding the "best" translation to support something I was saying or teaching. Through study, prayer, reading both sides, and, by God's grace, a degree of humility, my heart and mind were changed on the issue. Finally about wine, you seem to dwell one scripture in particular, about Jesus coming "eating and drinking", as a proof text. I have read several different arguments that make sense to explain that passage in an entirely different way than you do, and, when taking the totality of Scripture on this subject from beginning to end, the nature of our Lord, whom He was and is, and realizing our Lord, the King of kings would never contradict the very Words He himself inspired, the conclusion is, I believe, clear, that the drinking of "strong drink" is not wise for Christians and unlikely that Christ partook of it. You like to mention facts, and the fact is that wine, also, the fermented kind, was much weaker and of different character than what we accept as wine today, Even if it was drunk by Jesus and his followers, I have no doubt it was not "strong drink", which God's Word tells us not even to look upon, never mind drink it. Anyway, God bless, and nice
"talking" talking to you.
PS sorry about a few typos!
BTW, I agree about Prison Break. Very enjoyable show. I watched the entire series when it originally aired. Was one of my faves.
Steve had to watch those videos each year at PCC---I will leave our optinion of them out of this and I doubt it was their intent...but that set of videos on the KJV issue caused more division, disharmony and separation in the Christian circles...Christians Colleges sparring with each other and Christian's sseparating with each other over this topic....to us it was very sad to see this happen.
Yikes! Sorry about the typos...should have proof read it before posting!
As you were apart of MVBC at one point Pierre, I'm wondering if you recall Pastor Larry teaching that the wine of Bible times had ten times less alcohol content than the wine of today?
Following your logic, one would have to intimately know the sin strong hold or addictive problems of each person in their presence in order to decide if they were about to stumble their thoughts or lives, before you or any of us were to take an action...which would be an...impossibility.
I wonder how much thought you put into this blog, as a Pastor and teacher of God's word, before publishing it, and if you have any accountability or refer to someone who may look over what you've written, who is more of a Biblical scholar you respect, or is within or outside your church leadership??
Some, not all but some of your statements here in this blog are a bit concerning to me and others reading them, some who are not commenting on the blog.
There is no joy in the Lord and wanting to please the Lord out of love for all he did on the cross, and wanting to present his glory in the best possible light to a world that is perishing, in your blog. You appear to rather want to debate, and argue. I trust God will work in your heart to consider some of what is going on here in terms of what you wrote, and responses. And, that you may seek counsel, as the "wise man" depicted in Psalm 1.
Another - different anonymous writer.
Hello Second Anonymous writer from MVBC,
I am troubled by your comments for several reasons. First, you offer absolutely no refutation of my arguments or exegesis of the passage. Instead you mention that we must "intimately know" everyone and then say this is an impossibility and that statement somehow negates everything that the Bible says and implies in these passages.
The Bible is clear that we are to have liberty in all areas that are not moral issues (Read Rom 14) and only limit ourselves when certain criteria apply (knowledge of their struggle, etc.). If you disagree with this I would need to see biblical evidence and exegesis of the passage in order to change my mind.
This discussion was not intended to be about alcohol, but the statement by Pastor Larry that wine in Bible times was 10x's less alcoholic is simply a statement he read from a commentary and is not supported by historical documents or even other commentaries. In the OT there is actually historical and biblical evidence (Is 1:22) that wine was never diluted by the Jews. Historically this came from the Greeks and wasn't practiced by the Jews until around the time of Jesus. There is no conclusive evidence concerning how diluted it was. The consensus is that the diluted wine would have about a 3-5% alcohol content (equivalent to American beer).
Also, I am bothered by your assumption that I have no accountability. That is a statement that implies if I had accountability I would agree with you or, at the least, I would have a different opinion. I find this a rather arrogant statement. As a matter of fact, I have several pastors that read this blog and discuss the content with me on a regular basis. You could also say that since I post this publicly everyone who reads this holds me accountable.
If I am wrong I am more than willing to change my opinion. But I stand on the Scriptures and not men's opinions or church traditions. Too often that is what flavors our arguments. And if I seem argumentative in my blogs it is because the purpose of this blog is to help point out errors and problems in the church today so that Christians will return to the Bible and stop following the traditions of men. If it can be shown from Scripture that I am in error than I will publicly retract whatever I have said that was unbiblical.
“You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
Leviticus 10:9
"he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink...." Numbers 6:3
"You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink." I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 29:6
"Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink Judges 13:4
"Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them I NOT WISE. Proverbs 20:1
"Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine. Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. -our eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things. You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
“They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt! They beat me, but I don’t feel it! When will I wake up so I can find another drink?” Proverbs 29-35
“It is NOT FOR KINGS, O Lemuel—
not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
Prov. 31:4 - 5
"Woe to those who rise early in the morning
to run after their drinks,
who stay up late at night
till they are inflamed with wine." Isaiah 5:11
"And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions. Isaiah 28:7
"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." Ephesians 5:18
I understand many of these relate specifically to the Levitical Priesthood and to Israel, but the point being that God says much negatively about truly fermented strong drinks. Also remember: "He...hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" Rev 1:6 Is that literal or not? Is strong drink for Kings?
“You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
Leviticus 10:9
"he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink...." Numbers 6:3
"You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink." I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 29:6
"Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink Judges 13:4
"Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them I NOT WISE. Proverbs 20:1
"Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine. Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. -our eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things. You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
“They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt! They beat me, but I don’t feel it! When will I wake up so I can find another drink?” Proverbs 29-35
“It is NOT FOR KINGS, O Lemuel—
not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
Prov. 31:4 - 5
"Woe to those who rise early in the morning
to run after their drinks,
who stay up late at night
till they are inflamed with wine." Isaiah 5:11
"And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions. Isaiah 28:7
"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." Ephesians 5:18
I understand many of these relate specifically to the Levitical Priesthood and to Israel, but the point being that God says much negatively about truly fermented strong drinks. Also remember: "He...hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" Rev 1:6 Is that literal or not? Is strong drink for Kings?
“You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
Leviticus 10:9
"he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink...." Numbers 6:3
"You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink." I did this so that you might know that I am the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 29:6
"Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink Judges 13:4
"Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them I NOT WISE. Proverbs 20:1
"Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine. Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. -our eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things. You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
“They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt! They beat me, but I don’t feel it! When will I wake up so I can find another drink?” Proverbs 29-35
“It is NOT FOR KINGS, O Lemuel—
not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
Prov. 31:4 - 5
"Woe to those who rise early in the morning
to run after their drinks,
who stay up late at night
till they are inflamed with wine." Isaiah 5:11
"And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions. Isaiah 28:7
"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." Ephesians 5:18
I understand many of these relate specifically to the Levitical Priesthood and to Israel, but the point being that God says much negatively about truly fermented strong drinks. Also remember: "He...hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" Rev 1:6 Is that literal or not? Is strong drink for Kings?
sorry that posted so many times. I kept getting an error and did not know it was posting!
Once again, I would just point out that my blog wasn't about drinking alcohol. It was about Christian liberty. As you already pointed out almost all of your posts were specific references to specific times when people were not to drink wine. The very fact that God commands the priests not to drink only when they are performing in the tabernacle tells us that their NORMAL practice was to drink alcoholic wine. The same with the Nazirite vow. If you keep reading that passage you will quickly see that when the nazirite vow was ended God clearly states that they may now drink wine again.
The other passages are all very clear in their condemnation of "drunkness." Read each of those passages again and you will find nothing about drinking alcohol per se. The context is always clearly someone who is controlled by it and drunk. Not someone who had a glass of wine or a beer with their pizza. If you really want to know my position on alcohol and what the Bible teaches on it you can always listen to my message online. Google our church name and go the online sermons. The message title is something like "Wine in the Bible."
But rather than argue about alcohol I think that your reply is proving the whole point of my blog. I mentioned that we as Christians have started becoming afraid to live our lives because of the judgementalness of other Christians. The issue of alcohol is not, I repeat not, something that all believers agree on. Actually the historic position of the church and the reformers and even baptists has been moderate drinking. Only in the last 150 years has abstinence even been taught by the church. So clearly this issue is something that is debated and we should allow for differences. But the typical fundamentalist position doesn't allow for that. If someone disagrees with us they must be wrong and a "discussion" is really me telling you that you are wrong and never even listening to other side. This is why Christians are running around afraid to live their lives. Because other Christians are going to jump down their throats if they have a beer, not because they struggle with the sin of drunkness but because they disagree on the issue. This is divisive and ludicrous, as far as I am concerned.
We ought to be like Christ who in Luke 7 clearly tells the people that he drank wine and hung out with "sinners" described elsewhere as prostitutes, thugs, drunkards, etc. He didn't care what it "looked like." He cared about their souls. We are more afraid of other condemning Christians then we are of Christ. That was why I wrote this post.
Well you certainly missed all my points. I agree with you - Christians can drink if they want to. SHOULD they? is the issue. I did not judge anyone, nor would I. I believe the Scriptures are clear on the negative aspects of "strong drink" and it is best if we do not, but I will not judge anyone and it is up to each believer. We ARE Kings in HIs Kindom and, as the Word says, strong drink is not for kings. Christians should strive for ideals, not just what we have liberty to do and to just please ourselves because we can. Not imbibing, I believe, IS an ideal, for many reasons already mentioned, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to live up to that ideal, as long as we are not judging others on the matter. Drink and be merry - you are free to do so. I am free to not do so. God bless.
Greetings to all those who choose to comment anonymously! My name is Erik, and I am the author of Unorthodox Faith.
Allow me to address the translational issue from 1 Thessalonians 5:22.
First, let's look at the English word appearance.
If you are going to argue that the KJV translation is accurate, then you have to at least understand the English words as they were used. It is simply untrue that appearance, as used by the KJV translators in Elizabethan/Jacobean England meant the way people perceive you.
Appearanceentered the English language from Latin and derives from the verb apparere which means the same thing as our word "to appear" in the sense of showing up. It occurs quite commonly in Latin literature.
Appearance is the form or shape which conforms to its substance. It is not what things seem to look like, but rather what they ACTUALLY look like. There are perfectly valid English words used in the KJV for perceiving something incorrectly or incompletely.
Now, if you will permit me, I will compare this to the underlying Greek text (which is the inspired text, breathed out by God) and only translated into English.)
This is the verse in question:
ἀπὸ παντὸς εἴδους πονηροῦ ἀπέχεσθε.
The word in question is εἴδους, the genitive singular of εἶδος or ee-dosfor those unsure of how to read the Greek.
Paul's only other use of the word εἶδος is in 2 Corinthians 5:7, "For we walk by faith, not by sight (εἶδος)." That is most definitely not speaking about people's perceptions but about a physical shape, a knowable form.
Thus, we find that the way the KJV translators intended the word appearance and the spirit of Paul's use of the word are one and the same.
Conclusions
Appearance is the form or shape, and in Paul's own theology such a form or shape is one of substance and patently not of the perception of others.
In conclusion, Paul is most definitely not speaking of people seeing you and thinking, "Oh, he's must be sinning." It is talking about the substance, the solid, knowable form of sin.
In fact we are expressly forbidden to judge based on appearances. Systems constructed on this type of thinking are a large part of what Paul argues against in most of his books. It was the error of the Perushim (Pharisees) in the Gospels, and it was an error that Jesus repeatedly took head on.
Greetings to all those who choose to comment anonymously! My name is Erik, and I am the author of Unorthodox Faith.
Allow me to address the translational issue from 1 Thessalonians 5:22.
First, let's look at the English word appearance.
If you are going to argue that the KJV translation is accurate, then you have to at least understand the English words as they were used. It is simply untrue that appearance, as used by the KJV translators in Elizabethan/Jacobean England meant the way people perceive you.
Appearanceentered the English language from Latin and derives from the verb apparere which means the same thing as our word "to appear" in the sense of showing up. It occurs quite commonly in Latin literature.
Appearance is the form or shape which conforms to its substance. It is not what things seem to look like, but rather what they ACTUALLY look like. There are perfectly valid English words used in the KJV for perceiving something incorrectly or incompletely.
Now, if you will permit me, I will compare this to the underlying Greek text (which is the inspired text, breathed out by God) and only translated into English.)
This is the verse in question:
ἀπὸ παντὸς εἴδους πονηροῦ ἀπέχεσθε.
The word in question is εἴδους, the genitive singular of εἶδος or ee-dosfor those unsure of how to read the Greek.
Paul's only other use of the word εἶδος is in 2 Corinthians 5:7, "For we walk by faith, not by sight (εἶδος)." That is most definitely not speaking about people's perceptions but about a physical shape, a knowable form.
Thus, we find that the way the KJV translators intended the word appearance and the spirit of Paul's use of the word are one and the same.
Conclusions
Appearance is the form or shape, and in Paul's own theology such a form or shape is one of substance and patently not of the perception of others.
In conclusion, Paul is most definitely not speaking of people seeing you and thinking, "Oh, he's must be sinning." It is talking about the substance, the solid, knowable form of sin.
In fact we are expressly forbidden to judge based on appearances. Systems constructed on this type of thinking are a large part of what Paul argues against in most of his books. It was the error of the Perushim (Pharisees) in the Gospels, and it was an error that Jesus repeatedly took head on.
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